NT you are pretty damn close to right... But it seems I do not comment any more till I see a good reason to do so. Then what is bad about it is; I rarely seem to hit the mark. So it would seem to me.
New skinners and even old have their ups and downs with things. Sometimes I look at this before I comment. Usually now I try to include a screenshot with a bit of what I know on the problem at hand.
A good comment is always meant better if it has something to say. Like how they did such and such with the style of skin the artist made. Meant for saying like wow you got it down and it looks good. That or if there is a problem some place that can be a point for the skinner to learn more of what he/she missed.
So as with what this post is all about - YES you need to download and install the skin to give a proper comment. Otherwise the comment is only saying " WoW good work!" Which is good - but never really says the truth in some sorts.
WOM has a very good point to this thread and it is meant for the community to take a larger look at what is going on with skinners. That and how do you feel about what comments say and/or not say?
In part I know of a few skinners who do not even want to hear or see comments. This is rare - but true! For they have in the past been misunderstood with those comments. Causing them problems and such. So as it is a lot of good people just don't say much anymore. Very sad - but true...

Myself to be included with this matter. I only comment on stuff I download and install. With of course a reason for my comment. That or to try and help the skinner with anything I can to solve a problem.

Again WOM is not being seen in a true fashion for this thread. He is trying to say we as a community need to be a bit more into what we say and do. Be part of things and not just going with whatever the flow is as such. Make them comments count for you and look at things better. There is a lot of good talent out there for these new skinners and old too!
They would really like to hear how good they did and how to get things a bit more in light of the better skin. A skinner works hard in my book to produce a good skin and does want to know if there is anything else he can do to make things better.
But agreed good work or nice work is not a becoming comment!

I always check here first and anything I want that I can find here I will dl from here before anywhere else. Until recently I rarely went to DA but I have started checking over there more often lately for new stuff that doesn't get posted here.

I didn't read this entire thread, but I'm gonna comment anyways. Great discussion!!

When this thread started I thought it was about people rating and commenting on things just for the sake of doing so without even downloading and trying the skins. Which I completely agree is pointless since you are unable to give an honest opinion. With the exception of walls, logons, and bootskins which you can preview in full size and know whether you like or not. Of course there is still the possibility the logon or bootskin won't work properly so I guess the only real exception would be wallpapers.


As the comments have progressed though it seems to have turned to more of a debate on what constitutes an acceptable comment.

In my opinion as long as a comment is an honest assessment of what you think of the work, after you have seen and tried it, then it shouldn't matter if you feel like or have the time to write an in depth review of the skin or just leave a nice simple comment that states your opinion.

Apparently though that doesn't seem to be the case to some people.

Maybe this should be put up as a poll one of these days.

a) I only care about long in depth comments given on my work.
I appreciate any honest comments on my work.
c) I don't care about comments at all.

I'd be interested to see the results myself because I was under the impression that it was better to leave a comment if you like it then to not leave one at all. That way I'd know if I'm wasting my time even posting "Nice job", "Looks great", etc.

this also makes me wonder of all the comments on a 'master skin' how many of the people who commented actually 'bought it'.............

then again, i do enjoy getting critique, as long as its good......not stupidity or malice......

Good question Kitty.  I would venture to say not many.  

aside from animation, the static presentation provided in the preview itself is generally more than enough to give a general critique or a worthy opinion in most cases. if not for the preview we would have nothing to like or dislike in order to merit our download in the first place other than a name, and if we shouldn’t comment or rate in any circumstance based upon the preview, what reason do we have to download it either? use the preview to judge what see and think you’ll like, then download it to see if you do? that sounds... intelligent. what you download is going to look exactly like what it did in the preview unless whoever made the preview image is a moron.

if there is more to the work than the work itself, and it needs other elements or to be in certain environments in order to be appreciated as the author intended, it's up to the person who designed it to showcase it in that way so it will be seen in this way; otherwise just downloading it and applying the skin is likely to do very little in the way of judging it on criteria the author wants it to be taken into account with, and your “preview rating” is going to differ from the “i just wasted my time while increasing their download count rating” very little. if something only truly shines when it's got a dark background behind it, don't expect the end user to intently put a dark background on it if you're not displaying it in the way it's meant to be used. your preview is far more important than what people take into account.

no one buys a can without a label, you can't tell someone “you won't know if you’ll like some form of food unless they try it” when they're already gagging just from the smell alone, and as much as people like to say "don't judge a book by its cover" we are forced to. only a fool would pick books to read without looking at so much as the title, and none of us have time enough to read every book in existence, even if we lived forever there would be more material coming out faster than we can read through it.

it would be wrong for a professor to grade the content of a paper without reading it, but if they asked for your paper to be typed in MLA format, double spaced with 12 point particular typeface and you hand them 10 pages of something handwritten in red ink without any formatting at all, you'd have to be an absolute fool to expect they will waste their time reading something that was a failure long before you ripped it out of your spiral bound notebook.

there's also a great difference in saying something "looks awesome, or looks horrid" and "this works beautifully, or works about as well as an unplugged tv". you can judge static appearance at a glance, while functionality needs some testing, but everything is tested to see that it works before being approved in the first place, so why i need to see if something works for myself rather than seeing if it's “worth working” in the first place is a concept that is amiss to me. for the most part i expect anything i see to work already aside from possible minor bugs, and i’m not going to make any significant change in opinion for insignificant things. if other people would let a typo or a stray pixel turn their appreciation into detest then that’s their business and i’m not going to fault them for being fickle and nonsensical. whether or not the skin even works is not an obligation to the end user to test, it’s the responsibility of the author to make it work, and the moderator to make sure it does.

works available in here come in basically 3 flavors, visual, technical, and both. since everything is supposed to be "tested" to work before approval, we should be able to expect they already work, and opinions shouldn't need to stretch far beyond the visuals if that is truthfully the case. i'm sorry to say this to the people that dislike my mentality, but i can say a poster looks like shit or looks great long before i buy it and hang it on my wall. i should only be expected to download something before i can accurately rate or state my opinions when and ONLY when the author has been a colossal failure at making display of their work.

something to learn as far as comments go is that it doesn't matter in large what is said, it matters who says it. if their words don't hold any weight, neither will what those words mean regardless of the message. the same concept goes into ratings, and the people who say "this is ugly, i don't like text, green is eww" and rate the skin a 1 are in the majority of people who systematically have a rating pull that is equivalently as insignificant as their silly opinion, while the people who have proven a form of worth will hold much more weight and be trusted to judge in a manner that represents a better understanding in what criteria they cover, and why they are rating something in concern to it in the first place. concensus view works nicely when there is appropriate balance.

i encourage feedback from any user, for any reason, even down to the most petty of preferences. the comments regarding accomplishments are for us authors while the comments on functionality are for both authors and users. users take note of comments like "this doesn't work with _____" but totally look over "zomgzors this looks amazing" comments; we all have eyes and the users can judge that part for themselves. the ratings however are simply for the benefit of the users, not the authors or their ego. every time an author complains about the rating of their skin it's because of their ego, and people have the right to rate for any reason at all so long as it is pertaining to the skin rather than being personal.

how well it's put together, how useful or practical it is, whether or not it looks like garbage or is in good taste.

an issue people rather often overlook isn't just the comments and ratings given by people, but who the comments and ratings are received by. typical joe or some new blood can put up a masterpiece and get zero or negative feedback with a ho hum rating to boot, but plenty of "familiars" with brainless back patters following them around (formally known as ass kissers) can upload complete trash and get instant gratification in their comments and ratings, and any negative feedback or low ratings get quickly shunned. it’s pathetic, and a bigger load of crap than judging by preview could ever be conceivably accused of.

also, if people just skipped over what they don't like and didn't rate/comment truthfully and responsibly, every skin would have 5 stars, every comment would say "great work", and we'd turn into a bunch of oversensitive intolerant idiots who would rather be completely blind and intently ignorant, than to take off our rose colored glasses, there are enough people like this already, no need to increase the numbers of them.

and it's human nature to only take an action of any sort when they feel strongly about something in one way or another. people say i love/i hate, i like/i dislike, and it’s that simple. they don't run about saying "oh wow this skin is amazingly mediocre, you did an absolute decent and ok job, 3 stars my friend!!".

i comment/rate dreams without ever using them as an animated wallpaper, and why shouldn't i? i can see the animation and say "well done" or "that's impressive" without having icons and other shit covering up the very thing i'm supposed to be critiquing. i can tell if icons will be hard to see, or if a wall is too busy, or if the quality in something has been compromised without doing a 10 point inspection. if other people lack such a simple ability it's not of my concern. of course i will be able to give a more accurate rendition if i scrutinize every detail but why should i, comments and ratings aren’t about obligation they’re about inspiration? why should i look at a preview that i think looks like shit and then force myself to download and then install it just to say "ok, it still looks like shit, the exact same shit in fact"; are skins supposed to be less shitty when you download them or vice versa? is a blurry mess or some pixelated trash going to improve when i use it? if so, maybe an update to the damn preview is in order don’t you think?

also as much as people value how many downloads they have, and considering how many people search for things or credit their worth based on downloads, how does it help to have stuff that has 1 million downloads, but then has 1 million 1 star ratings and 1 millions comments saying this is the biggest piece of garbage i've ever encountered. so the worst authors end up being top authors in the hall of fame because we had to make extra super special sure they were indeed producing crap, good concept to follow though. when people post threads in the forums to mark milestones in their downloads should i postpone my congratulations in order to first tell them “people just download your crap to make sure it was the same crap in your preview and find out it was just as crappy as they already knew it was”?

people judge books by covers, so what do book writers do? they stop making shitty and obscure covers and provide accurate renditions and summaries, and when they don't accurately portray something or try to dress it up or hide their faults they end up being called out on it pretty quickly in most any case, just as it happens here.

yes i often enough rate and comment without being a damn beta tester of the skin/icon/wallpaper for 2 weeks, but my opinions and reasons are not unfounded, i don’t do voice them lightly, and i stand behind and back up every decision i make.

you want my opinion? i think i’m more qualified to critique based on the thumbnail of the preview image than most people are after downloading and using it, and i doubt i’m the only one with such an opinion. “most people” will download and praise anything so long as they like the concept (oh sweet, i love goth!), materials (zomg it’s spiderman!!1 (and probably a ripped spiderman at that)) or the artist (hells yeah trendwhore8301 you always make the best stuffs), all the while completely overlooking the content, work, and functionality.

i’m fine with being an elitist prick if that makes me one.

Your not an elitist, just a bit misguided and full of yourself maybe.     

When it comes to Windowblinds, I can tell by a screenshot just exactly what the skin will function like. Why?... Experience with windowblinds. I still don't rate it without using it. Why?
Because I can't predict from a screenshot how an animation is going to look, mouseover effects on buttone, etc. This basically goes for almost everything. Even a wallpaper looks better as a png than jpg due to compression. Do you hold the artist responsible for compression blurglobs? I don't think so. Downloading and checking something out is THE ONLY way to truly offer a valuable opinion.

Judging something based on a screenshot is simply not a fair judgement no matter how you justify it. Talk circles til the sun goes down, you won't convince me. Your ego is making your judgement worthless. No offense horizon. I understand where you are coming from. I just don't think you made it anywhere yet on this one.

It is easier to be critical than correct.

  Ya know, when I download a wallpaper, I change it from a .jpg to a .bmp.  I get a better wallpaper.  Thats my opinion.  Its impossible to know what a dream will do unless theres an accomponing video with the screenshot.  Not many do.  Like Night Train said, from a static screenshot, its impossible to know what the animation will do or look like.

I agree that drive by Comments only fluff the skinners ego, and do not offer a true representation of the skins merits. I typically offer comments on items I have downloaded, Tho I have occasionally offered a comment on just looks alone. But not many. Usually in these cases its following a suite and commenting on the elements I cant or dont use Example ( I dont use Maxthon, but if a suite im downloading has a matching skin for it).. I will offer a "looks good" comment there.

"Looks good" offers that my comment is based purely on visual speculation, and not a evaluation of the skins functionality/usability.

I do not "rate" without Downloading and testing.
 

I think WOM Possibly is more driving toward those who more often than not, offer Comments with no basis other than the thumb. Those who seem to be either Comment whoring for stats or some other agenda (perhaps padding a pal's skin comments).

I  have seen a few times ,comments on skins that  get "OMGWTFBBQPUDDING" type of hype comments, while having no downloads at the time of the comments were posted. This astounds me and makes me suspicious/curious of how they got so enamored with this particular skin (considering it has not a single download). While someone pointed out that yes some times skins can be had else where then commented on here, it is not always the case.

good point ..... but itz always a master skin ...   

i did mention animations and so forth had to be pretty much set aside, but that in the case of static images there are different rules applied, except for a case such as dreams where you can sit there and watch the animation, or download and watch it just as a movie even though you can’t set it as your background.

windowblinds though is really something i have to say i'm tired of hearing of; between it and wallpapers it's nearly the only thing people generally even think to take into consideration as far as libraries are concerned. i know it's wincustomize, i know it's stardock, but my library list shows 53 categories and i can't fathom how everything has to come back to only 1 or 2 of them.

we even have a smileys category, you’re telling me i can look at the smileys and say they’re good/bad unless i download them, build a site, create a forum on it, then setup the smileys to function into the text of the threads and try each one out, or put each one into msn messenger or something? how can you not tell such a thing from just the preview, even if you can't tell if you'd want to use the smileys over another different set, how can you not tell the quality and appeal of them alone?

we have a graphics category too, why would i need to download them, open them in photoshop and put some lens flares and outer glows on them to know if it's a good graphic, rather than a good file. bad files afterall get rejected, no?

either you can tell the gist of these things from the previews, or you should be able to, that is the function of the preview, to let you know what you’ll BE downloading. the preview exists so you can tell if you want it, so you can tell if it is quality or not, and skins get denied their approval when nothing is wrong with the skin itself but it has a bad preview image.

and even as far as compression on a jpg goes, if it's compressed it's more than likely the author made it compressed of their own accord. most of the wallpapers ARE jpgs, and even stock art so very often comes in jpg format, so rare banding issues and people file format preferences aside i don't think there's much of an issue to be considered, and most people don't have eyes trained enough to notice such small details anyway, you can even point out artifacting to a slew of people that will still never notice it. i think it's "misguided" to believe i'm critiquing people on the quality of their previews rather than the quality of the content.

it's not even ratings we're talking about in theory, it is the comments in particular, but comments, ratings and downloads are all closely tied in among themselves. i simply exercise my right to look at something beautiful and call it beautiful or look at something and say it reminds me of a gas stations restroom.

what is a preview anyway? a screenshot? an exact image of the item itself? what's a comment other than a verbal rating? do i care if they know “i” think it's nice, or do i simply care to say it? i don't see why a person can't say what their judgment is when they've already deemed it to be one thing or the other before ever hitting the download button in the first place.

how does downloading anything make a person more qualified to give an accurate assessment of something’s worth? any random tom dick and harry become a knowledgable expert or what they’re critiquing because they clicked a red button? how is a person that downloads something and says "oh wow cool" going to have a comment that holds more worth than someone who is actually evaluating the skin, regardless of the fact it's from a full sized, high quality, identical to what the other person is seeing preview image? i'm not making blind judgment, i'm looking right at the skin in question, and in the manner that it's intended to be seen, the preview is the skin/icon/wall/dock/app/widget.

the concern on what needs downloaded in order to make an assessment is a case by case basis. is it animated or something? then i need to see the animation or whatever to comment on that feature or make to rate the skin as a whole. but as far as comments go, i can look at a skin and say it's beautiful; if i downloaded it i could also say the animation is great, but i don't need to see the animation in a start menu that so many of us don't even use in order to validate the 2 cents i gave on something not concerning the animation. i can view the thing, see how it looks, know that it would look the same way on mine, and come to a pretty simple conclusion as to whether or not i like it, and whether or not i think it was well done. it's not as though i run around windowblinds saying "the animation is superb and it works great" when i have no knowledge of these things, i assess what i see, and ratings aside i am justified when commenting on whatever image is before my eyes.

but that's windowblinds, that's dx most of the time, but wallpapers... icons... i can look at an icon preview and know/say that it looks like you carved out a picture from a newspaper ad with a dull knife using shaggy carpet as a cutting board, converted it to a digital file by taking a picture of it with the camera on your phone, then saved it as 48 color gif, then re-saved it as a low quality jpg, then finally put 4 photoshop filters and drew a god awful looking orb on top of it before finally "saving" it as either a png or and ico file, and tell that it's complete crap without having to waste wincustomize's bandwidth downloading the pos. and if the icon was somehow high quality instead of the horse crap we are presented with, the fault is more accounted to the authors stupidity than my mistrust that they won't actually be that stupid, or the trust that the mods will make them use something pertinent to the file they're uploading.

i can look at a car and say it looks cool, elegant, fancy, nice, great, beautiful, or even that it looks like crap, or a box with wheels without having to take a 2 mile test drive or even so much as sitting inside it. i can say a woman is attractive without her having to take off her clothes first. i can look at a skin and tell you what i think of it without putting it on my computer.

and, i do.

Here's my comment:I'm beginning to think it's not worth the effort.The skins are supposed to be evaluated and rated,not the comments or the people leaving them.Who is setting the standards as to what constitutes an "acceptable" comment? This started out as a rational thread,I'm not sure where it's going.